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paul ryan came in, had to defend mitt romney. had to prove he was president. god forbid if he was president. there wasn't a wipeout in this debate. both sides came in, thinking we'll leave prosecute what we have to do. >> let's go to our panelist, joe biden. >> show me a policy where you take responsibility. by the way, the great recession, it fell out of the sky it came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card and put a preskrichgs drug benefit on the credit card, a trillion dollar tax cut for the very wealthy. >> a quick takeaway. >> i think joe biden did do his boss a lot of help tonight. on substance, i think it was a draw. each side will draw a lot of encouragement from it. on style, i think paul ryan won the debate. and that is, the biden, the dismissive laughs, shouting, interruptions, ryan was calmer and more presidential on style, not substance. on substance, i thought it was a draw. >> it was condescending to paul ryan and i could have done with a lot less eye rolling and chuckling on the part of joe biden. however, i thought it was a gr
paul ryan came in, had to defend mitt romney. had to prove he was president. god forbid if he was president. there wasn't a wipeout in this debate. both sides came in, thinking we'll leave prosecute what we have to do. >> let's go to our panelist, joe biden. >> show me a policy where you take responsibility. by the way, the great recession, it fell out of the sky it came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card and put a preskrichgs drug benefit on the credit card, a...
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Oct 12, 2012
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now if you bring on the romney/ryan plan, the landscape is just the same. they have the same increase. they also want to reduce it by about 10%, but they want to rely on the private sector, not government, to get that done. in a word, they're going for vouchers. they don't like calling it vouchers but that's really what it is. right now if you're on medicare what happens is that the government pays medicare. medicare pays the hospital. the hospital takes care of you. under this plan, the government would pay you and you would decide if you wanted to buy into medicare or into private insurance that will create competition between the two and their theory and that is how you get at that very same waste that the white house wants to get out. these are two very complicated, huge programs. there are critics on both sides who say this plan won't work or that plan won't work or this plan will leave people strand or that plan will leave people stranded. the truth is, it is complicated. it's hard to deal with all of that. if we go to this basic claim that both sides
now if you bring on the romney/ryan plan, the landscape is just the same. they have the same increase. they also want to reduce it by about 10%, but they want to rely on the private sector, not government, to get that done. in a word, they're going for vouchers. they don't like calling it vouchers but that's really what it is. right now if you're on medicare what happens is that the government pays medicare. medicare pays the hospital. the hospital takes care of you. under this plan, the...
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Oct 11, 2012
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romney ryan were down 4 to romney biden but now they were up 12 with 44 percent with democratic side 32 percent. another key number are the voters were unsure they want somebody else. that number shot up 6 points after the debate. the debates have the potential to move the needle quite a bit. with four weeks to go joe biden has been prepping for his in delaware with chris van holland playing ryan. the president handicapped tonight's big show down. >> joe just needs to be joe. congressman ryan is a smart and effective seeker but his ideas are the wrong ones. >> ryan has a chance to let voters decide for themselves. he had ted olsen as a stand in. he is trying to shine the spos spotlight on to someone who won't be on the stage tonight, president obama. >> what i am excited about we get to offer the american people a very clear choice. joe biden has been on these big stages before. it's the my first time. he can't run away from president obama's indefensible record. >> in kentucky they will debate at center college. it will have a broad spector of foreign and domestic issues supposed to
romney ryan were down 4 to romney biden but now they were up 12 with 44 percent with democratic side 32 percent. another key number are the voters were unsure they want somebody else. that number shot up 6 points after the debate. the debates have the potential to move the needle quite a bit. with four weeks to go joe biden has been prepping for his in delaware with chris van holland playing ryan. the president handicapped tonight's big show down. >> joe just needs to be joe. congressman...
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Oct 11, 2012
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the romney/ryan plan, is it politically unpopular? he has to bring that up. >> woodruff: how do you see it, mark? >> i would say with paul ryan, he's got to k k kp it going. the republicans are on a roll right now, they feel they're on a roll. but he should heed the council of robert frost to john kennedy who said be more boston and less harvard. i would say be more wisconsin more walk shaw than washington, d.c. he cannot give in words his powerpoint if he mentions sequestration oncetor committee as a whole or the motion to recommit eyes will glaze over he's got to stay on offense but at the same time he has to par tri differences between him and governor romney and especially changes that governor romney -- several incarnations that have gone to is going to parry that, not to get into the weeds but parry it. as far as joe biden, i think he's got a tougher but in many ways more simple. he's got to lift the spirits of the spirited -- dispirited democrats. i think he f he does that -- he is the happy warrior, very much so. a lot more so
the romney/ryan plan, is it politically unpopular? he has to bring that up. >> woodruff: how do you see it, mark? >> i would say with paul ryan, he's got to k k kp it going. the republicans are on a roll right now, they feel they're on a roll. but he should heed the council of robert frost to john kennedy who said be more boston and less harvard. i would say be more wisconsin more walk shaw than washington, d.c. he cannot give in words his powerpoint if he mentions sequestration...
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romney has been weak on specifics. ryan has specifics. they're going to tie whatever specifics he has to romney. >> ryan is going to be brilliant. >> bill: whatever they do, it's a matter of i think both candidates will be very, very cautious. the reason i say that ryan lost it today was because you have to assume if you're ryan or romney that the press wants to hurt you, no matter who it is. when they do something as this reporter did, that was pretty stupid, you just laugh about it. come on. you roll your eyes. you don't react in a serious way because then that will be used against you. all right. >> remember, beating up on the left wing press works to the republican candidate's advantage every time. >> bill: if i had done that, if he said listen, you pinhead, that was an unfair question. but it looked like he wanted to get away from him so it didn't look good. later, john stossel on why some companies are hurting their workers over obamacare. interesting report. plus, selling your stuff. very quietly the supreme court may stop us from
romney has been weak on specifics. ryan has specifics. they're going to tie whatever specifics he has to romney. >> ryan is going to be brilliant. >> bill: whatever they do, it's a matter of i think both candidates will be very, very cautious. the reason i say that ryan lost it today was because you have to assume if you're ryan or romney that the press wants to hurt you, no matter who it is. when they do something as this reporter did, that was pretty stupid, you just laugh about...
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Oct 11, 2012
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romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's vote. with this walkback, this attempted and failed walkback that happened within the last 24 hours from the romney campaign, do you think that's going to have an impact there? >> yeah. there's some interesting data that came out in the last few days which i think is what was initially behind what mitt romney said, taking a more moderate position on abortion. first you had this poll that came out in ohio, showing obama ahead of romney by four. the gender gap in this thing was astounding. among men, romney had a 16-point lead in ohio. among women, 60-38, obama. that is like a 38-point gender gap. i have not seen someth
romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's...
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and that's exactly the romney/ryan budget does. itzhaks it to the middle class and seniors, in order to give these tax breaks to very wealthy people. >> what do you think of the job martha raddatz did? >> i think she did a very good job. never made herself the center of the debate. >> she started off very strong with benghazi. want to play a little bit about what the vice president said about security in benghazi. >> well, we weren't told we want more security. we did not know they wanted more security. >> explain that to me. a lot of the testimony was, in fact, the, the, the government did know. that, that, that the state department was well aware that there were requests for security. doesn't that completely contradict exactly what we just saw in i think it was wednesday's testimony? >> what the vice president is saying is that he and the president didn't know. this information had been communicated, at least according to the hearings, to the diplomatic security folks at the state department, and some others. but it wasn't commun
and that's exactly the romney/ryan budget does. itzhaks it to the middle class and seniors, in order to give these tax breaks to very wealthy people. >> what do you think of the job martha raddatz did? >> i think she did a very good job. never made herself the center of the debate. >> she started off very strong with benghazi. want to play a little bit about what the vice president said about security in benghazi. >> well, we weren't told we want more security. we did...
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Oct 13, 2012
10/12
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the romney-ryan ticket has been spending more time in ohio than in the country. here is a little bit from governor romney at his last event. thehis president on friday the administration was to put out hasanswer to the question chas china manipulated their currency or not. they were supposed to designate that on friday. they said we will not do that. we will wait until after the election to do that. seven times so far they passed the buck on that. i'm not going to pass that off. on day one i will label china a currency manipulator and get serious about making sure that people don't cheat when it comes to trade. >> reporter: the obama administration asserted that doing such tough crackdowns on china could lead to a trade war of the fastest growing economy in the word and they said that mr. romney hasn't been entirely pure when it comes to doing business with china himself in his private life and private business experience. the romney campaign says it is all excuses and time for the u.s. government to stop putting up with china's trade practices and currency manip
the romney-ryan ticket has been spending more time in ohio than in the country. here is a little bit from governor romney at his last event. thehis president on friday the administration was to put out hasanswer to the question chas china manipulated their currency or not. they were supposed to designate that on friday. they said we will not do that. we will wait until after the election to do that. seven times so far they passed the buck on that. i'm not going to pass that off. on day one i...
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example, paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan's budget, huge opportunity, and of course the lies that paul ryan himself has uttered like in his convention speech. biden is not going to sit back and take that i assume. >> no, i don't think so. and i think people will be watching for daylight between paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan not wanting to drag his own career down with this guy who has been kind of on the losingen of the stick. we saw that happen with mccain and palin, right. somebody wanting to make their own career at the expense of someone else's. but joe biden is a thoughtful man, an experienced leader and he is committed to his partner in this, president obama. here is the other thing, joe biden is a heck of a story teller. his gaffes come with a lot of affection, because they are usually in the telling of a really important human story. >> jennifer: i agree with you. but do you go along with the convention wisdom that this debate matters so much more in light of the president's less than stellar performa
example, paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan's budget, huge opportunity, and of course the lies that paul ryan himself has uttered like in his convention speech. biden is not going to sit back and take that i assume. >> no, i don't think so. and i think people will be watching for daylight between paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan not wanting to drag his own career down with this guy who has been kind of on the losingen of the stick. we saw that happen with mccain and palin, right....
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the president's team said the debate exposed the risk of electing a romney/ryan ticket. the candidate also disagreed over foreign policy. congressman ryan pointing to the death of four americans in libya as the administration weakness on abroad while biden said romney's campaign talks first before they know what the facts are. back to you. >>> that cbs news poll found the overall impressions of both vice presidential candidate improved after the debate. 55% of those asked if bid inis somebody they can relate to. 48% for ryan. 74% also say that about ryan about being knowledgeable and 85 for biden. >>> cbsnews.com senior political reporter breaks down last night's faceoff. >> reporter: joe biden came out very aggressive in this debate and maintained that tone throughout. to republicans he was rude. they were using the word unhinged, complaining about his smirking. for democrats it's exactly what they wanted to see. a week ago president obama was very passive in his debate against mitt romney. it was frustrating for democrats. they wanted to see him take to it mitt romney.
the president's team said the debate exposed the risk of electing a romney/ryan ticket. the candidate also disagreed over foreign policy. congressman ryan pointing to the death of four americans in libya as the administration weakness on abroad while biden said romney's campaign talks first before they know what the facts are. back to you. >>> that cbs news poll found the overall impressions of both vice presidential candidate improved after the debate. 55% of those asked if bid inis...
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Oct 14, 2012
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you have heard paul ryan and other members of the romney/ryan team make that suggestion. they think the media is ready to write the obama comeback story. it's romney's proposition to try to stand in the way of that. >> how much concern are you hearing from both camps about the fine line they have to walk in terms of attacking while in this pretty delicate town hall style format where regular voters don't like that kind of vitriol? >> the bottom line is, when you attack people, if i were to attack you right now, your negative ratings would go up. people watching the show would think less of you. mine would, too, because people would think less of me for attacking. that's the delicate dance the candidates have to do. think the town hall makes that a challenge. >> jake tapper, our senior white house correspondent, soon to be chief who knows where he'll go from there. jake, thank you very much. he has a big show today. his guests include ohio senator rob port nan. bo biden, son of joe biden. and our own martha raddatz, the moderator of the veep debate. and we'll have coverage
you have heard paul ryan and other members of the romney/ryan team make that suggestion. they think the media is ready to write the obama comeback story. it's romney's proposition to try to stand in the way of that. >> how much concern are you hearing from both camps about the fine line they have to walk in terms of attacking while in this pretty delicate town hall style format where regular voters don't like that kind of vitriol? >> the bottom line is, when you attack people, if i...
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this is where the romney ryan campaign is sort of setting up. they're doing a lot of live interviews from here on the other side of the room just doing this very quickly. the obama campaign. you can see the forward sign behind me. wolf, i had one of these behind me earlier this afternoon, we heard from the romney campaign, hey, do we have to have that sign behind you? just to show you how conscious of the optics they are even when the media is doing their live shots. >> thanks very much for that. the debate is a good reminder that the men vying for the number two job might wind up being president some day. both joe biden and paul ryan tell voters the truth. what's going on. we're going to find out more now from john berman. you've been checking the chams. what are you finding out? >> the candidates continue to war on taxes with paul ryan claiming that president obama wants not just to raise them on small businesses, but to put them over 40%. >> what president obama wants to do is raise the top tax rate on our successful small businesses and manu
this is where the romney ryan campaign is sort of setting up. they're doing a lot of live interviews from here on the other side of the room just doing this very quickly. the obama campaign. you can see the forward sign behind me. wolf, i had one of these behind me earlier this afternoon, we heard from the romney campaign, hey, do we have to have that sign behind you? just to show you how conscious of the optics they are even when the media is doing their live shots. >> thanks very much...
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Oct 15, 2012
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i know congressman ryan, watched his career and watched governor romney what he's been able to do, a guy who can fix it, thinks about things, can negotiate very strongly. he can bring two sides together to get a solution. >> obama argues -- let's look at the obama side for a minute. obama makes the case that he, obama, can make a fair deal with congress. when he's going to do this, i don't know because he had a chance to do it last year and he failed to do it. obama's argument, just to get your take on it, a fair deal means raising tax rates on the most successful earners and small business people and somehow that will balance off spending cuts or entitlement reform we don't know about. >> frankly, larry, i've never seen -- i've spent my whole life dealing with economics and economic issues. unless we get back to lowering our rates and maybe taking way the exemptions people like me have and enjoy, i'm willing to give this all up for a slightly lower rate for everybody and expand the base of people who contribute to the u.s. government. >> so you buy the romney tax reform plan but you
i know congressman ryan, watched his career and watched governor romney what he's been able to do, a guy who can fix it, thinks about things, can negotiate very strongly. he can bring two sides together to get a solution. >> obama argues -- let's look at the obama side for a minute. obama makes the case that he, obama, can make a fair deal with congress. when he's going to do this, i don't know because he had a chance to do it last year and he failed to do it. obama's argument, just to...
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>> i thought paul ryan was very strong in making the case for the path that the ryan-romney -- romney-ryan ticket would take the country in terms of stronger middle class and look, i'm not sure anyone told vice president biden that there is a split screen shot here sometimes when you're in this debate and i thought that these are very serious issues and i'll let the american people judge how vice president biden did in terms of his facial expressions and his chuckles. >> gretchen: what did you think about that, ed? you've been in politics a long time. some people are saying they haven't seen anything like this in 40 years. i mean, did you think it was disrespectful to paul ryan? >> you know, i thought it was really disrespectful to the american people. when you're talking about some very serious issues and people, their quality of life and their jobs and falling incomes, you know, i think that's serious. and joe biden seemed to at times find those topics amusing. i'm not sure that most americans watching felt that way. but the problem for them, gretchen, is not style. it's substance and th
>> i thought paul ryan was very strong in making the case for the path that the ryan-romney -- romney-ryan ticket would take the country in terms of stronger middle class and look, i'm not sure anyone told vice president biden that there is a split screen shot here sometimes when you're in this debate and i thought that these are very serious issues and i'll let the american people judge how vice president biden did in terms of his facial expressions and his chuckles. >> gretchen:...
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republican nominee paul ryan trying to build on team romney's momentum. that is how it started last night. this morning we end. i'm bill hemmer. welcome to friday edition of "america's newsroom." martha is out. >> i'm jamie colby out for martha they provided points and issues on zingers and economy and debate decorum. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> with regard to social security, we will not, we will not privatize it. if we listened to governor romney and congressman during the bush years, man where all those seniors would be now if there money had been in the market. their ideas are old and their ideas are bad and they eliminate the guaranty of medicare. >> here he is the problem. they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar turning medicare into a piggybank for obamacare. >> usually when there is a crisis we pull together. we pull together as a nation. as i said, even before we knew what happened to the amba
republican nominee paul ryan trying to build on team romney's momentum. that is how it started last night. this morning we end. i'm bill hemmer. welcome to friday edition of "america's newsroom." martha is out. >> i'm jamie colby out for martha they provided points and issues on zingers and economy and debate decorum. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting...
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the idea in general is to tie governor mitt romney -- sorry, tie governor romney to the ryan budget. and as one top democrat put it to me, the idea is to make the case that romney/ryan in electing that ticket means americans would be electing the intellectual leader of the house republicans, as one person put it, that paul ryan is the intellectual leader of the house republicans and he should not be able tonight to duck from any specifics. so, again, we will hear that word, specifics. and look for the vice president to try to get paul ryan to talk about budget details in this debate tonight, wolf. >> jessica, has the vice president done his tour of the actual debate hall yet? >> reporter: he has. he did that tour a little earlier today before 2:00 p.m. he sat in the chair. he looked at the monitor where you get your time cues. and i'm told all that went smoothly. he also before he boarded the plane today leaving from delaware he talked to reporters and he was asked what is his strategy. take a listen to what he said. >> i'm looking forward to it. nice of you guys to be here. are you
the idea in general is to tie governor mitt romney -- sorry, tie governor romney to the ryan budget. and as one top democrat put it to me, the idea is to make the case that romney/ryan in electing that ticket means americans would be electing the intellectual leader of the house republicans, as one person put it, that paul ryan is the intellectual leader of the house republicans and he should not be able tonight to duck from any specifics. so, again, we will hear that word, specifics. and look...
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jon: andrea saul, from the ryan campaign. romney-ryan campaign i should say. thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. and we gave both sides equal time. thank you. >> thank you. jenna: a warning from our nation's defense secretary about a growing threat. what he says are military our military need to do before it's too late >> greater danger facing us in cyberspace goes beyond crime and it goes beyond harrassment. a cyberattack perpetrated by nation-states or violent extremist groups could be as destructive as the terrorist attack on 9/11. such a destructive cyber-terrorist attack could virtually paralyze the nation. jenna: gives you something to think about, doesn't it? that was defense secretary leon panetta talking about cyber attacks linked to countries like china, russia and iran saying u.s. banks have already been hit and we need to defend our nation's networks before critical elements of our infrastructure are targeted. national security correspondent jennifer griffin is live from the pentagon. interesting comparison to 9/11. why did mr. panetta choose
jon: andrea saul, from the ryan campaign. romney-ryan campaign i should say. thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. and we gave both sides equal time. thank you. >> thank you. jenna: a warning from our nation's defense secretary about a growing threat. what he says are military our military need to do before it's too late >> greater danger facing us in cyberspace goes beyond crime and it goes beyond harrassment. a cyberattack perpetrated by nation-states or violent extremist...
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that's why the romney-ryan ticket has the momentum and it is anyone's race. in 2008 independents loved obama. in 2010 they rejected them. they are moving away from him after that bad debate performance last week. alisyn: before we move on to the other questions in the poll i want to show that mol one or time because there is something else very interesting in it. the lots one there, which is before the debate only 19% of people were insure of who they would go for, these independents. after the debate 15% of them were unsure, why is there uncertainty growing after the debate? >> i think obama has a decent-sized lead an didn't do well eufp. i think a lot of people who said they were going to vote for obama are in the undecided campaign. i think that's where the election will be decided. mitt romney over the past couple of weeks has been softening his position in order to appeal to independentses. and that has democrats very nervous because it's working. alisyn: let's talk about favorability rating of president obama. look at this. bob, before the debate 51% fa
that's why the romney-ryan ticket has the momentum and it is anyone's race. in 2008 independents loved obama. in 2010 they rejected them. they are moving away from him after that bad debate performance last week. alisyn: before we move on to the other questions in the poll i want to show that mol one or time because there is something else very interesting in it. the lots one there, which is before the debate only 19% of people were insure of who they would go for, these independents. after the...
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debate, i don't think there's any doubt that congressman ryan and i, governor romney and the president, we have a fundamentally different vision for america. and quite frankly a fundamentally different value set. >> woodruff: democrats had been down after president obama's performance last week, but the vice-president aggressively challenged every point ryan made, prompting this exchange. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress... >> ( laughs ) >> ...to make up for lost ground, but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> well, don't take all the four minutes, then. >> woodruff: the president was quick to hail that performance immediately after the debate. >> i thought joe biden was terrific tonight. i could not be prouder of him. i thought he made a very strong case. >> woodruff: republican ryan sounded upbeat about how he'd done at a diner this morning before leaving lexington, kentucky. >> i felt great about it. >> reporter: did you feel knocked around by him? >> no, it's what i expected. >> woodruff: and mitt romney prais
debate, i don't think there's any doubt that congressman ryan and i, governor romney and the president, we have a fundamentally different vision for america. and quite frankly a fundamentally different value set. >> woodruff: democrats had been down after president obama's performance last week, but the vice-president aggressively challenged every point ryan made, prompting this exchange. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress... >> ( laughs ) >>...
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in wisconsin that is where paul ryan is from, mitt romney's running mate. that is only a 2-point race in wisconsin. you have to remember, this is state where back in june there was recall election against scott walker. he won the race. he demoralized the democrats. a lot of activists were saying because president obama didn't come strong in favor of the democratic candidate, it demoralized a lot of democrats there. turnout could be very important. if the democratic turnout is not high, you might see mitt romney win that state. >> patti ann: meanwhile, florida where he is romney is enjoying a 2% advantage. we have david plouffe saying, we are going to get the senior citizens and hispanics. we are going to get florida? >> it's a crucial state for romney to win, one of two of most crucial states, florida and ohio. there is another poll out, tampa bay times poll that shows romney is up by 7. obama campaign disputes the poll that the hispanic voters are not as close as that poll shows. that is pretty significant lead in florida with rom up 7. he certainly as the
in wisconsin that is where paul ryan is from, mitt romney's running mate. that is only a 2-point race in wisconsin. you have to remember, this is state where back in june there was recall election against scott walker. he won the race. he demoralized the democrats. a lot of activists were saying because president obama didn't come strong in favor of the democratic candidate, it demoralized a lot of democrats there. turnout could be very important. if the democratic turnout is not high, you...
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Oct 8, 2012
10/12
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obviously, ron, we see which direction the romney/ryan ticket would like to at least take this week? >> reporter: claktly. hey there, tamron. hope you can hear me over the rumble of the bus. we're heading into detroit. i'm sure the campaign could pack more stuff into the schedule today. in addition to the rally if in toledo where you heard paul ryan, he has three events around the detroit area. this is romney's old stomping ground from his younger days, and they're not quite ready to give up on a michigan where they think they can make a play. he's on his way to an education roundtable and a fund-raiser and another big rally tonight planned. another thing unusual about his speech in toledo was the fact it was much longer than usual. he went 33 minutes or so. usually we get a15, 20 minutes out of him and he doesn't spend a lot of time talking about foreign policy. because the crowd saw governor romney's speech at the virginia military institute, paul ryan wanted to talk a little bit about that and perhaps giving him a little more of a chance to get some of the foreign policy stuff out
obviously, ron, we see which direction the romney/ryan ticket would like to at least take this week? >> reporter: claktly. hey there, tamron. hope you can hear me over the rumble of the bus. we're heading into detroit. i'm sure the campaign could pack more stuff into the schedule today. in addition to the rally if in toledo where you heard paul ryan, he has three events around the detroit area. this is romney's old stomping ground from his younger days, and they're not quite ready to give...